How to Share the Gospel (Even if You’re Scared)

Peyton Jones [introduction]: We always think we’re making disciples. It’s all about the transformation they have. But when Jesus called them in that second year, “Follow me, and I’ll make you fishers of people,” there’s a promise there. Go on this journey with me of disciple making, and I will make you into something you’re not. That is powerful.

Ellen Krause: Welcome back to the Coffee and Bible Time podcast. I’m Ellen, your host.

When you hear the phrase make disciples, what comes to mind? For many of us, it can sound like something reserved for pastors or missionaries or people with years of Bible training. But Jesus’ command to make disciples wasn’t just for a select few. It was for all of his followers.

Today we are talking about what disciple making looks like in real life. And I’m joined by a guest who knows a lot about it. Peyton Jones is a Bible teacher and author who has planted churches across three continents and the founder of New Breed Training, a global network that equips leaders to multiply disciples around the world.

Peyton, welcome to the podcast.

Peyton Jones: Hey, so good to be with you. Thanks so much for having me.

Ellen Krause: Well, it’s a joy to have you here with us. Why don’t you just start out by telling us a little bit about yourself and your ministry?

Peyton Jones: Yeah, I always like to tell people I kind of got into ministry through the back door.

I had gone on to get my RN straight out of high school. Thought maybe I’ll be a missionary, but did not see myself being a pastor, and ended up, at 22, a megachurch pastor. And one day, on my honeymoon, getting married—I was pastor of a megachurch before I was a married man—and walking on the beach, the Lord said, “This isn’t really what I have for you.”

And so my wife and I did go to the mission field. We went to Wales, UK. Our support dropped in half almost immediately because 9/11 hit. Ended up working in a factory, became a firefighter, became a Starbucks barista over the years. Meanwhile, we’re planting churches, and nothing that worked in America would work in the UK, especially back then. Those were much darker times.

So even though I was planting churches in hardened soil, I began to realize: this is why Paul worked with his hands, so he could be around the people he’s trying to reach. If you try to plant a church, disciple making doesn’t necessarily happen. But if you make disciples, church planting will always happen.

Ellen Krause: That’s so encouraging to hear. And I don’t think it’s always the way we think about it.

Let’s just start with the basics. I think a lot of Christians hear the phrase make disciples, and they know that it’s important, but they don’t really know what that looks like in real life. So tell us what you mean by that.

For one clarification, does that include the process of taking someone who’s a non-believer through introducing them?

Peyton Jones: So those are amazing questions. And I’ll kind of go in reverse because discipleship is what most of us kind of hunker down and do, right? Like maybe we go to Jan’s house on Tuesday nights with our small group, and we’re there and we’re studying the Bible, and that’s discipleship. We’re with Christians. We’re trying to grow in Christ, trying to deepen our faith.

But it’s very different than disciple making. When Jesus gives the Great Commission, he says, “Go.” Okay? So there’s this, I gotta go out of where I’m at. I have to step across some barriers and boundaries. And then he says, “make disciples,” and then he defines it. So, for example, he says, baptizing. So they’re going to become Christians if I do this. And then he says, teaching them to obey, as if they’re going to have radical life change after this. And then he says, “I’ll be with you until the end of the age.”

So he’s promised his power and presence, the Holy Spirit, to be here with us as we do this, probably because it’s a little bit harder than sitting at Jan’s house. Now, don’t get me wrong. Sitting at Jan’s house on Tuesday is fantastic. You need both. Discipleship and disciple making are like two sides of the same coin.

But when Jesus made disciples, he did three things. He spent time with them, he taught them, and then he tactically engages them on missions. So if you look at time, teaching, tactics, those are the three things.

Well, on Sundays, you know, we come into church and we get teaching. And then at Jan’s house on Tuesday night, we’ve added this second rhythm here: time. Now we’re spending time, we’re talking with each other. We’re getting into our problems. We’re unpacking real-world things.

But that third rhythm, the tactical piece that involves going, baptizing, you know, all those things, that’s where we get stuck. And so disciple making, which is not with Christians—it’s not Tuesday night at Jan’s—you could be doing it over text, phone conversation, cup of coffee. It’s out in the wild, right? It’s part of the lifestyle that you start adopting.

If I were to define disciple making, it would be following Jesus and bringing someone along with you.

Ellen Krause: That is so helpful, and that really does clarify the picture that we’re entering in here to talk about today. So thank you for that.

You’ve written about how there is a discipleship crisis, actually, in the modern church. What do you think are the biggest barriers keeping Christians from making disciples today?

Peyton Jones: I think first off, we know the what: make disciples. And then we know the why because Jesus said to, duh. Right? But I don’t think the average believer is being disobedient. I think they’re just disoriented. I think we know the what and the why, but we’re lost as to the how.

I think most Christians out there are like, I really want to make disciples, but I don’t even know where to start. So when we hear the sermon, we get all riled up, like, Let’s go. And by the time we’re out of the parking lot, we’re thinking, But now what? Like, what do I do?

I’ve got this thing that I say in the book, which is we tend to disciple the way we were discipled. Well, the problem with that is that 78% of us, statistically, were not discipled in any meaningful way. We maybe got a 30-second discipleship or disciple-ing.

Nobody discipled us. The thing was they kind of hoped that you would just come back the next week. It was like the baby turtle struggling for the ocean. You know, some get picked off by the seagulls, others get picked off by the caiman. But if you make it and you get back here, you’ll probably do okay. And that was it.

And then we just came and we got teaching every week. If we got into Jan’s house on Tuesday, hey, two out of three ain’t bad.

But when someone personally brings you to Jesus and then continues on with you, that’s what Jesus modeled.

And there’s a couple other barriers as well. Not only just not knowing the how, but also some of our misconceptions about it. When you say disciple making, for some people they think, I know what you’re talking about. You’re talking about cold calling complete strangers and having awkward conversations with them about Jesus. And yeah, that doesn’t sound very fun. And you’re right. That’s terrible. Nobody really likes doing that, right? Except for salesmen. They’re like, I can do this all day.

But for most of us, that’s not it. So if it wasn’t done to us, we don’t know what to do.

So it’s not your fault. And yet, in saying that, when I say it’s not your fault, most Christians are like, I know, but I know it’s my responsibility.

And so discipology is: hey, I know where you’re at. You’re a disciple of Jesus. You just need to know.

Ellen Krause: And that’s, I think, what people are craving, is this knowledge because I think a lot of hearts have the desire to do it. But like you said, it’s the how.

Well, Peyton, one thing that you talk about is that spiritual growth comes from obedience, not just knowledge. So how do we see that idea of growth, even through failure, in how Jesus taught his disciples and how that kind of fits into this process?

Peyton Jones: You know, I’ve done a lot of interviews, and that is the first time someone’s asked that question. And I love that question.

I mean, Jesus lets them fail. Like you asked about barriers, and really I should have mentioned that one. That question right there. I mean, we’re all afraid of failing. We’re all afraid that we’re gonna get it wrong and mess people up.

So I think it’s hilarious how Jesus… Okay, so I’ll just break it down real quick.

In the first year, Jesus calls six disciples. Really, he calls three. He calls John and Andrew. Andrew goes and gets his brother Peter. John goes and gets his brother James. He then calls Philip, who grabs his friend Nathaniel sitting under the fig tree.

And so those six, he just spends time with them. A couple days later, he says, “Hey, I got a wedding in Cana, Galilee, family thing. You guys want to come?” It takes a day to travel there. Those weddings lasted seven days. Then, traveling back, they spent nine days together now. In an epic road trip, you either are bonded for life or you want to kill the person. They bonded.

So here’s what happens all during that year. Scholars reckon that they have spent somewhere within two to three months of waking hours walking. Jesus has moved to Capernaum because that’s where they live. And he just settles there and spends time.

Then in the second year, he says, “I have to go.” And then that’s when he says, “Follow me,” because he’s leaving. He says, “I have to go to all the other cities and preach the gospel of the kingdom. For this reason, I was sent.”

When he hits the road, that’s when he starts his tour. Now, only John spends time on year one. The other Gospel writers jump straight into year two, where Jesus goes around teaching and preaching and healing. But in that year, the disciples watch and learn. They don’t do anything miraculous.

But at the beginning of year three, it says in Mark 3, Jesus called the 12 to himself, designating them apostles, which means apostolos, sent ones, missionaries. And at the end of that year, the sending of the 72, they come back and they’re like, “Lord, demons listen to us. Diseases were healed.”

That’s when he has them feed the four thousand, five thousand. That’s when they try to cast out the demon when he’s on the Mount of Transfiguration, and they go, “We couldn’t do it. Why, Lord?”

You know, this is where you see their failure because Jesus, in that year, is training them to leave them, right? So he’s letting them get their hands dirty. They’re doing most of the stuff.

In fact, when Jesus has them feed the 4,000, he says, “You give them something to eat.” But they blow it. Right. I mean, talk about failure.

After the feeding of the 4,000, they get in a boat, and they wholly misunderstand Jesus. And why do you have them do the same miracle twice? Because they didn’t get it. And even after that second time, it says Jesus said, “Are you so slow to understand?”

Right. Now keep in mind these are teenagers. Anyone who’s been a youth pastor or a parent of teens, you know what that feels like, right? And Mark writes, “For they did not understand the lesson.”

And then they couldn’t cast out the demoniac. And he says, “This kind only comes out by prayer and fasting. Maybe you guys should be praying a little bit,” wink, wink.

And then the last thing, after the 72 are coming back, Jesus meets everyone as he’s getting ready to head to Jerusalem, actually to die. James and John went through Samaria. And they come back and go, “Lord, those people did not listen to us. We think you should throw fire upon them,” right?

So three years, 24/7 with Jesus, and the nuclear option, apparently, is still on the table.

I don’t know about you guys, but I’m so encouraged when I read the Bible that Jesus allows them to fail. And he actually laughs about it. Like, he’s not all upset. Jesus isn’t worried. They didn’t break anyone.

You can’t really break people unless you’re legalistic or you’re a false teacher. I mean, if you love people, you’re gonna do fine.

But Jesus laughs and calls them sons of thunder. Like, that’s meant to be funny. He gives them a nickname that sticks with them.

And John—I mean, look at John later, right? James stays a little fiery, right? A little salty. We like that about James. But John becomes the apostle of love.

And I love that because we always think we’re making disciples. It’s all about the transformation they have. But when Jesus called them in that second year, “Follow me, and I’ll make you fishers of people,” there’s a promise there. Go on this journey with me of disciple making, and I will make you into something you’re not.

That is powerful.

Ellen Krause: And it’s so encouraging because we are human. We may fail. We will fail at times. And to see that God will use that no matter what—like you said, if your heart is in the right place—that’s so encouraging.

You know, I was listening to your Through the Word app, and one of the things you mentioned in there was the people that oftentimes feel intimidated by doing this are introverts. Yet you say that they actually really have this tremendous gift, right? Of being able to go more in depth with people. So maybe shed just a little bit more light on that for anyone who’s listening that—

Peyton Jones: Yes.

Yeah, I’m so glad you mentioned that because it just seems so tempting to think, Leave it to the professionals. But Jesus was like, “Nope. I’m the professional, and I leave. So you have to do this.”

And who did he pick? He picked three extroverts. I mean, it’s very obvious that Peter’s an extrovert, John is an extrovert, James is an extrovert. They’re all over the pages of Scripture.

But the other nine, past Acts chapter one, you never hear about them again. Not because they weren’t used by God, but they were quiet. They’re the quiet ones. You know, Philip and Matthew and those, they’re just quiet, and they’re introverts.

I mean, look at Matthew. He’s a tax collector. Just think of all the accountants you know. Are they particularly good with people? Sorry, I’m offending accountants right now. But you know, we have our people people, and then we have our people who are like, I only have so much people juice in the day.

But an introvert—if Jesus picked nine introverts to three extroverts—an introvert is a really good listener. And if you can get people talking and sharing their story and talking about what it is that holds them back, and you can be a good listener, you don’t have to have all the answers. You might have a Scripture here and there. You might say, “Well, in my experience,” and you share.

And by listening, you earn the right to be heard. Introverts—no, you guys are completely, like, one hundred percent the best disciple makers I’ve ever seen.

Discipology currently has over fifty thousand people making disciples. And we just get all these stories from people going, “I didn’t know how easy this was. I didn’t realize how simple it was. I never thought I could do it.”

Keep in mind, when Jesus called Peter, Peter’s first thing, when he realized who Jesus was, is, “Depart from me, Lord. I’m a wicked and sinful man.” His first gut reaction was, You can’t use me.

And if you’re out there listening today and you think that, I want to encourage you: those are the people Jesus picks. Not the people that think they’re awesome, but the people that say, “Lord, you got the wrong guy,” or “You got the wrong gal.”

I’d remind everyone, the right guys and the right gals always think they’re the wrong—

Ellen Krause: That makes so much sense. That is very, very encouraging.

Well, let’s jump into discipling like Jesus did it. And you talked about your three elements of time, teaching, and tactics. Let’s talk maybe briefly just about how Jesus modeled these in his ministry.

Peyton Jones: Yeah. Ralph Moore said this, and I love this quote from him. He’s a good friend of mine, but he also started a movement called Hope Chapel.

If you asked him, “Hey, you’ve got like thirty-four hundred churches that started out of this one little church. Like, what happened?” Ralph would tell you the secret. He’s gonna say, “All I did was I discipled three people at a time for 50 years.”

He said, “When I realized that if I could make friends, I could make disciples, that changed my life. That made me a disciple maker.”

Like, the first thing that Jesus models is just friendship with those twelve.

And then their first step is they go and grab a disciple-making—they did it naturally. So we say, “Hey, just grab someone. You don’t have to do this by yourself,” which right away takes an edge off the fear.

And like we said, you’re not gonna go cold call strangers. You’re gonna work in your existing relationships.

So if you go back to those first six, Jesus is picking from co-workers, from friends, and from family. So the first thing we have you do is grab that partner and then write a list of all the people that you’re already in contact with that God’s placed in your life, who don’t yet know who Jesus is, and start to pray for them.

And then eventually what you’re gonna do is you’re gonna walk them through John’s Gospel. And we’ll be there. I teach on that app called Through the Word. It’s 10-minute audio guides, every chapter of the Bible. So you don’t have to be the Bible teacher.

And most people’s reaction is like Nathaniel’s: “Anything good come from Nazareth?” Like, Jesus, he didn’t sound all that special. You know, “I don’t think I want to follow him.” And then he meets Jesus, and he’s transformed.

And so this is all designed for you just to be the person who says, “I’ll walk alongside you. I’m following Jesus. Want you to know him.” It’s real simple.

And the reason we use the Bible in this is because 85% of Americans that were profiled said they would like to know the Bible better. They’re curious. But their two obstacles are, “I don’t have a lot of time,” and “When I do try to read it, I can’t understand what it’s talking about.”

We need to remember, by the way, there were women being made into disciples. And we’re told repeatedly that there were women that were there—Mary and Martha and all those. What were they doing? They were making disciples too, you know. And so that’s what we gotta remember. Jesus recruited male and female, made them into disciple makers.

Ellen Krause: Hmm. And if you’re listening to this and you feel like, you know, you’re juggling family responsibilities, work, and getting your kids to all these different places, I love that you said disciple making fits naturally into our lives, right?

It’s the other parents you’re sitting next to at the sporting event every week. You can start to just build those relationships wherever you are. And I think that takes the pressure off of feeling like, I have to have a plan. I have to follow, you know, just make it more overwhelming than it needs to be, essentially.

Peyton Jones: Yeah.

Yeah, could I just speak into that real quick? I mean, you mentioned sitting next to people at sporting events. I’m currently planting a church in Carlsbad, California, because my daughter played sports, and I sat next to a couple. And we laughed and talked and cheered and ranted at the ref and all that, all together, for months.

And then one day they look over at me and say, “Hey, we have things that go bump in the night in our house.” And, you know, “Like, you’re a priest.” And I’m not a priest. I’m a pastor. But I said, “Well, yeah, I could come over and pray over your house.”

And that day, half of them came to faith. It was literally what you described. It was born out of that relationship.

And I tried to send them to a Hispanic church because I’m a little lazy, and I was in between church plants. Finally they said, “Hey, why don’t you start one for us?”

So here we are starting a church. And we’ve seen about 20 people come to faith since we started it, outside of that. And it just—those relationships are so precious.

I will tell you this: you don’t have to be a great evangelist to be a disciple maker.

I am not a good evangelist. Nobody believes me on that. But disciple making neutralizes that. It levels the playing field. You build the relationship.

And by the way, 90% of people that come to faith say they came to faith because of a friend. Not because of Billy Graham, not because of a stadium crusade, which I’m grateful for, all of those things. But 90% of people that come to faith do so because a friend told them.

Ellen Krause: Mm.

Well, as we start to wrap things up, for someone who’s saying, “Okay, I have some friends that I’ve already made. You know, we’ve been doing life together.”

What’s the next step for the conversation? Do you wait? Do you let it come up organically? Or do you take steps to make your faith known?

Peyton Jones: One of the things that we really want people to know is the Holy Spirit is going to be there. He says, “You won’t be alone. I will be with you as you do this to the end of the age.” He’s going to turn up, and he’s going to open a door for you. He always does.

And then the next step, you know, like at one point, just ask the question, “Have you ever read the Bible?” Because you’re gonna be yourself, and you’re gonna be mentioning the Lord as you’re building relationship, like you do. And we kind of teach you how to do that.

Like, say, you tell a macro testimony. That’s like what Paul does three times in the book of Acts. We actually hear his testimony written out in full with a different slant, which shows he changes it to different audiences. But the Holy Spirit told Luke, “Hey, I want you to write this thing in full.” Three times.

That shows the power of your testimony. Because people can deny that Jesus is the Christ. Sure. They can deny he’s God or anything you’re talking about in the Bible. But what they can’t deny is your experience. And in today’s age, that’s powerful.

But then we teach you, like, hey, micro testimonies. Like you come back from this weekend, and let’s say this weekend something at church or something God did in your life, or even in the week. Just when you’re talking to people, you come into work on a Monday, or, you know, “Man, you guys, I’m so grateful that God…” And it’s a one-sentence, it’s a two-sentence thing. That’s a micro testimony.

Those are equally as powerful. You’re just being you. You’re not preaching at people. You’re just dripping the Lord into your common, everyday reality.

And it starts to become their reality. Now they’re curious. Now they’re wondering, What’s that like, where she sees God in her everyday life? That becomes powerful.

And so we teach you, like, “How would you like to just… I have this app I listen to. It’s 10 minutes. We could do it once a week, and we can talk inside of the app, like leave voice text, all that kind of stuff.”

And that, by the way, is free at discipology.com. If you have Through the Word, you can go on it. But if you go to discipology.com, that’ll kick you off, and it’s free forever, no ads. We literally just want to get people going.

And we’re seeing this just catch fire with young people. That’s been the most exciting thing. I always think if you can get teenagers to do it, you can get anyone.

But what may be more convincing to some of you out there is we have people in their 60s, like this one lady. Her name’s Alice. She came through the cohorts before I had written the books.

And she’s from Sedona. And Sedona is like New Age capital. You know, people go out in the desert and blow harmonicas, hope the aliens will come, you know, yada yada.

And she started doing this. And she said, “Peyton, here’s the thing. I have twenty-three people walking alongside me with Jesus now on this journey of disciple making. And I’ve got 11 more families getting ready to join these 23 people that we decided to throw a picnic.”

And I said, “Alice, are you planting a church? Is that what you want to…?”

She goes, “Peyton, I’m not a pastor.”

But see, this is what happens. You suddenly are a disciple maker. And we have multiple people that are like, “I have five, six groups.” Because what happens is when you start making a disciple, they start to say, “Hey, this is so cool. I talked to my sister or my aunt about this stuff. Can she come to this?”

Like, and it’s digital. We encourage you to meet face to face as well. But they’re doing this in their own time throughout the week.

And it’s exactly what you see in John 1. John getting James, Andrew getting Peter, Philip grabbing Nathaniel. It just starts happening, and you can’t control it.

Ellen Krause: Peyton, that’s incredible. And I think for so many people out there, you’ve just lifted a cloud of how do I go about doing this? So please tell our listeners where they can go to find out more information about you and Discipology.

Peyton Jones: Yeah, discipology.com is your starting place. And then if you’re on the Through the Word app, it’s on there right now.

I mean, this is the thing. I wrote a book called discipology, and the companion journal goes with it. But we really wanted it to be that if you’re not a reader, it’s not gated behind that. And then it’s not gated behind a paywall. You can just get started today. We’re not going to ask you to buy things. I’m not even going to ask you to buy my book. We just want to see a movement of disciple-making stuff.

Ellen Krause: We most certainly will include all of these links so that people, if you’re listening, we’ll make it easy for you. Just go to the show notes.

Before I let you go, I just want to do rapid fire here—our three questions that we’d love to ask our guests.

Peyton Jones: Yeah, let’s go.

Ellen Krause: What is your go-to Bible, and what translation is it?

Peyton Jones: You know, my go-to is a wide-margin study Bible that I started back when I had eyesight. So right now I can’t even see. But it’s the ESV, although in my old age, and because I teach on Through the Word, the NIV has become a fast favorite again. It’s what I first started with, and now I’m back.

Ellen Krause: Very good. Love both of those.

Okay. Do you have any favorite Bible journaling supplies? Do you like to Bible journal?

Peyton Jones: Yeah, I have a certain kind of pen. I use a razor-sharp pen to write my Bible notes. And I’m starting to insert a blank page of paper in between because my notes are filling up in my Bible.

And there are Bibles now that they make that have that. And I’m thinking, man, even for preaching, I would love that. They’re amazing. I wish I’d seen those.

Ellen Krause: Yes. My daughter has one. Yes, it’s an interleaved. Yes, yes. She loves it.

Awesome. Okay, last question. What’s your favorite app or website for Bible study tools?

Peyton Jones: Yes.

So I am a big fan of Bible Gateway. I love Bible Gateway as a site. But I have to say Through the Word because I teach on it.

Ellen Krause: Well, Peyton, thank you so much for joining us today, for sharing your incredible wisdom and your encouragement to people. We just appreciate you so much. Thank you.

Peyton Jones: Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Ellen Krause: And to our listeners, if this episode encouraged you, be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode. And if you know someone who would be encouraged by today’s conversation, please share this podcast with them.

I hope you are as excited about it as I am.

Well, thank you so much for listening. We’ll see you next time on the Coffee and Bible Time podcast. Have a blessed day.