Cara Ray [introduction]: I believe that in every season of life, whether we feel inclined towards God’s Word or not, there is reward there. There is rest there. 

There are times, obviously, where our heart posture is not always perfectly God-ward. And yet, as we go to Him and we rest in Him and we find Him, and we really just honestly pray and say, “God, I don’t feel like this today. Please meet me here. Please help me here.”

So often, He loves to answer that prayer and meet us in His Word.

Ellen Krause [pre-recorded clip]: Hey friends! Before we dive into today’s conversation, I wanted to share this note that we received from a listener in Newcastle, Wyoming.

She says:

“I recently came across the Coffee and Bible Time podcast because I was searching for something I could listen to in the mornings. I wanted something to strengthen my relationship with God and to bring me closer to Him. I’ve been going to church and have always considered myself to be a believer.

But it wasn’t until the last few months that I’ve really started diving into His Word and really making the effort in my relationship with Him. I really enjoy your podcast and can’t wait to continue to listen.”

I just want to thank this person for sending us this comment. It was so encouraging and meant so much to us. And we will be praying that you will continue experiencing the joy of knowing God through His Word.

We love hearing from each and every one of our listeners. If you have a thought or comment, let us know by leaving a comment, review, or tapping the “Send Us a Fan Mail” link in the show notes. We’d love to share your comment in a future episode.

Okay, back to the episode.

Ellen Krause: Welcome back to the Coffee and Bible Time podcast. I’m Ellen, your host.

Have you ever opened your Bible because you knew you should, but it felt more like checking off a box than actually meeting with the Lord?

Well, if you found yourself in a place where you’re tired, worn out, and even the things that you know are supposed to be life-giving just feel like another task on your to-do list, then this conversation is for you.

Our guest today is Cara Ray. She’s a writer, Bible teacher, and the founder of the Writer’s Bloc Community and Podcast. Cara has written for a number of outlets, including Desiring God, The Gospel-Centered Discipleship, and the YouVersion 29th anniversary this month. We have four kids—one is married—and they’re all kind of growing up. The nest is slowly empty Bible App.

Today, she’s here to talk to us about moving beyond performance and duty to rediscover the joy of delighting in God in every part of life.

Cara, welcome to the podcast. We’re so glad that you’re here.

Cara Ray: I’m so delighted to be here. It’s so nice to be with you, Ellen.

Ellen Krause: Well, I’m thrilled because we have a joint mission, which is to help people delight in God’s Word, truly. And so I know for our listeners, this is right on point.

But before we jump in, tell us a little bit about yourself and how God has been working in your life recently.

Cara Ray: Yes. Yeah, well, thank you. I live in Phoenix, Arizona. I’m actually in Gilbert, outside of Phoenix.

I am married to Tim. We’re going to celebrate our 29th anniversary this month. We have four kids—one is married—and they’re all kind of growing up. The nest is slowly emptying, so that is a new phase of life for us.

Ellen Krause: Yes, yes.

Cara Ray: But yeah, we really love our life here. We’re busy with church and ministry and home group, and kids’ sports are still a part of our daily life.

So yeah, we’re just really enjoying being here and trying to survive in the heat. It’s supposed to be 111 today. So, you know, we’re just making it through the best we can.

Ellen Krause: Wow, yikes. Okay. Stay inside.

Cara Ray: Yeah. Yes, exactly. It’s that time of year.

Ellen Krause: Yes, well, what a delight.

I think a lot of Christian women, Cara, would say that they want to spend time with God, but somewhere along the way it starts to feel more like a burden—like it’s just another thing they have to get done.

Why do you think that happens so often?

Cara Ray: Well, that’s definitely my story. I feel like that was kind of the way I grew up.

I think really what happens is it comes from a good place. I think women want to obey the Word. They want to be in the Word. They know that there are riches and joy and delight and peace found in the pages of God’s Word.

And yet, life happens, and we’re tired. Depending on our season of life, we’re either up all night with babies, or we’re worried about teenagers, or whatever the case may be.

So life just crowds in, and sometimes our Bible time can feel like just another item on our to-do list.

I really felt that way. That’s kind of what prompted the writing of my book, is that I felt like I was missing out. I was having spiritual FOMO. I wanted to be in God’s Word, and yet it just felt like something I should do—sometimes something I had to do—and not always what I wanted to do.

So my spirit was willing, but my flesh was weak so often. And I think that just meets a lot of us where we’re at, where the desire is there, but sometimes there are outside forces working against us, or internal forces working against us, that make it hard for us to find, in God’s Word, the pleasure and the delights that are at His right hand.

So yeah, I think it’s just a combination of both internal and external factors that make that difficult sometimes.

Ellen Krause: Yes, absolutely.

Well, you mentioned your book, which is called The Pursuit of Holy Leisure. When people hear the word leisure, I think they probably think of vacations or hobbies or taking a break.

Tell us about what you mean by the pursuit of holy leisure.

Cara Ray: Yes. Well, as I said, my story was very similar to that first pain point of wanting to be in God’s Word and finding it difficult to do so.

I was studying spiritual disciplines because I really felt like that was what was missing. I just needed to be more disciplined in my walk with the Lord, and then I would have more delight.

And I came across this phrase. It was in a book by Richard Foster called The Celebration of Discipline. He talked about how the early church fathers wrote about this idea of holy leisure, and that holy leisure was a pursuit of the good and the true and the beautiful. It was restful devotion.

I came across that phrase, and it just jumped off the page. It struck me so powerfully because I thought, My time with God doesn’t feel like leisure. Everyone loves leisure, so why am I not experiencing that holy leisure—that enjoyment and the rest that comes from God’s Word?

And so I didn’t make up the phrase. It’s been around for a long time. I think I kind of unearthed it a little bit because I felt like it really touched on the heart posture that I really wanted to have, which was, This is delight. This is nourishment for my soul. This is rest.

And that was kind of encapsulated in that phrase, holy leisure.

Ellen Krause: Right.

And so the difference, then, between leisure that sort of just helps us kind of escape from life versus what actually draws us closer to God—can you just elaborate on that a little bit further?

Cara Ray: Yeah. One of the things I really discovered is that our definition of leisure is not necessarily the same definition as the ancients’ view of leisure.

We often think of leisure as being fun and frivolous. It’s kicking back, checking out. It’s not active. It’s very passive.

But the way the ancients, like Augustine, saw it was that leisure was a pursuit. It was an active engagement of heart, mind, body, soul, and spirit. It was all of those things together.

And as a result of that active engagement, there’s rest. Then leisure is the result of that pursuit.

So it was a mindset shift for me. When I started to think of my time in God’s Word as a pursuit of holy leisure versus, This is what I have to do before I do anything else today, or, This equals a good or successful day…

Often that was how I categorized a good day. Did I have a quiet time? Did I do my spiritual duty?

Instead of seeing it that way, I started to change my mind about what this was. This was actually a pursuit of holy leisure.

The same way you and I would probably enjoy a wonderful chat with coffee and our Bibles open in a coffee shop, just talking about life and sharing and listening, I started to see my time with God the same way.

It was coffee and Bible time, literally. And it became rest, and it became leisure to me.

So it was a mindset shift.

Ellen Krause: Yes. And I think, for me, Cara, a big difference is that with leisure—earthly leisure—you look forward to it.

I very much look forward to spending that holy leisure, sort of just jumping in wholeheartedly, whether it’s one verse or a chapter. It’s something that I actually take delight in and look forward to. I can’t wait.

Cara Ray: Yeah, I do too.

There were times when I was younger where I was like, Once I get into it, I really enjoy it. But it was often that first hurdle for me.

Once I met with God, it was wonderful and good. But my spirit didn’t always want to engage that way.

I knew that it’s easier to scroll on your phone sometimes than it is to open up God’s Word and really engage your heart and your mind.

So I agree. Once I’m in it, it’s like, Yes, this is exactly what my heart needs.

But I don’t always want it initially.

Ellen Krause: Yes, for sure.

I can see where you’re coming from on that. And people go through seasons, right, of how they’re feeling about doing that.

That’s what I love about your book, is that it gives people this refreshing perspective that this is a gift—something that we can truly enjoy, that God wants to give us.

One particular pattern of thought that I loved was when you talked about creating art with heart.

You said that we can use whatever art form we enjoy to draw hearts, minds, and imaginations in and point them, either directly or indirectly, to the One who is good, true, and beautiful.

I would love for you to talk a little bit more about this idea.

Cara Ray: Yeah.

I love talking about creativity and hobbies and that kind of thing because I feel like often that’s what some of your listeners might associate leisure with. It’s the things that you enjoy doing that may be outside of the things that you need to do all the time.

Again, I hate to keep bringing up all the ancient people, but they had a lot of wisdom. They talked about the good and the true and the beautiful, and they called those the transcendentals.

It’s kind of like a trinity of attributes—that wherever you find goodness, you’re also finding truth, and you’re also seeing beauty. And wherever you see beauty, you’re also seeing something good, and you’re seeing something true. So they transcend life in a way.

When we are pursuing those things that bring us joy, and we’re using them as a means of drawing something good and true and beautiful from them, either implicitly or explicitly, that is a way of glorifying God.

We’re told in Colossians, “Whatever you do, do it all unto the glory of God.”

For me, I love to write. It’s work, but it’s also rest. It’s also enjoyment.

I think, specifically for writers—and I think this is true for whatever art form you enjoy, whether you like painting or knitting or creating spreadsheets, really anything where you’re engaging your mind and your creative energy—you can glorify God.

When you’re representing something good and true and beautiful, you are actually glorifying God in a way.

Sometimes, even as writers, we can write explicitly Christian content, and that glorifies God. Sometimes we can just write something that’s really good and really true, and in a way that indirectly glorifies God because He is what is good, and He is what is true, and He is what is beautiful. He defines all of those qualities.

So in my book, I really talk about how our leisurely pursuits can be made holy. It’s kind of a play on The Pursuit of Holy Leisure because the things that we enjoy doing are actually moving us toward that mindset and heart posture of glorifying God with our creative endeavors, whatever they may be.

Ellen Krause: Yes, absolutely.

I think sometimes God convicts us when we’re doing something outside of those things to be like, “Wow, is this really how I should be spending my time? Is this really what I should be putting into my mind?” Or whatever that might be.

So I love that it keeps your mind—and what you do—engaged truly in God’s Word and in obedience to what He has for us, the perfect path.

Well, Cara, do you think many Christians spend more time trying to be faithful than actually enjoying God?

Perhaps they think of it more legalistically, and that’s where part of the enjoyment falls away.

Cara Ray: Yeah, I know that was my heart initially. I think I really struggled with a lot of legalistic tendencies.

I just want to bring a little nuance to that because I think oftentimes we look down on duty. We think that duty is kind of legalistically bound, where there’s an absence of heartfelt feeling involved.

And yet, I do think God uses our discipline and our duty. I think He does reward that.

So I don’t want to make it sound like The Pursuit of Holy Leisure means that we are no longer duty-bound and we should only go to God’s Word when we feel like it, because I don’t believe that.

I believe that in every season of life, whether we feel inclined toward God’s Word or not, there is reward there. There is rest there.

There are times, obviously, where our heart posture is not always perfectly Godward. And yet, as we go to Him and we rest in Him and we find Him, and we really just honestly pray and say, “God, I don’t feel like this today. Please meet me here. Please help me here.”

So often, He loves to answer that prayer and meet us in His Word.

And so there is an element where duty is a means and a tool that God provides.

I think often it’s the duty that leads to delight, right?

It’s the planned rhythms of meeting with God that sometimes spark the new ideas. We wouldn’t have that rest and enjoyment with God if we just went haphazardly.

It’s that regular meeting with Him that really helps the delight to be born in our hearts.

So it’s a both-and situation.

Sometimes our hearts aren’t always there, but God meets us there despite how we feel.

Ellen Krause: Yes, I couldn’t agree more.

There are specific things that people might be thinking about that would actually alert them to recognizing that delight has sort of quietly been replaced by duty.

What are some of those signs?

Cara Ray: Well, I think when delight feels replaced by duty, we often have that checkbox mentality, which we talked about earlier. I kind of do this, I check it off my list, and I go about my day.

Or it could be, too, that there’s a lack of obedience or delight in obeying. Sometimes we grit our teeth and kind of muscle through things, when the Bible says that His Word is a delight to us.

So we don’t often come or obey with the right heart posture.

Some of those things are just kind of a check in our hearts where we feel like, This isn’t quite right.

I think that’s just an invitation for us to pray, to repent, to ask God, “Search my heart, God, and see if there be any wicked way in me.”

If there is something that is interrupting our communion with God…

That’s one of the topics I really love to talk about. Our union with Christ is something that’s fixed. It’s settled, and it doesn’t fluctuate based on how perfect our attendance is in His Word.

That’s our union. It’s a settled reality.

But our communion with Him often fluctuates based on our obedience and our willingness to have our eyes opened to see and hear from Him.

So the communion fluctuates, but the union remains intact.

Once we begin to understand that…when I first started learning about that, my eyes were opened. I felt like the scales fell off, and I was no longer feeling like this was my legalistic obligation that earned God’s favor.

I realized, I already have His favor. He already delights in me.

Now I have the opportunity to show up and meet with Him and delight in Him.

So it was just this beautiful realization of what this union with Christ entails.

Ellen Krause: Mm. That was one of the things in your book that really captured my heart, actually.

I just want to read a little bit of what you wrote. You said:

“If you are in Christ, all of the above and more are yours.”

That included that we were chosen, predestined, made holy and blameless, accepted in the Beloved, delighted in, redeemed, forgiven. He has made known to us the mystery of His will, given us an inheritance, and sealed us with the promised Holy Spirit—from Ephesians 1:3–14.

And you went on to say:

“Every blessing, every grace, and every spiritual gift flows from this one truth: that you are in Christ, and Christ is in you.”

That is so foundational to everything and every part of life.

When you were writing this portion of the book, how did this touch you and work in your life?

Cara Ray: Yeah.

I love to talk about that because it really was a before-and-after kind of moment in my personal growth as a Christian when I really understood union with Christ.

I have a book I recommend. It’s called Union with Christ—easy to remember—by Rankin Wilbourne.

It was one of the most beautiful books and just helped me understand this concept.

I feel like I’ve been in Christ for over 40 years—my whole life. I’ve grown up in church. I’ve listened to countless sermons.

But the way he was able to pull union with Christ together in my thinking was such a life-transforming moment for me.

Because I realized that we often don’t label it.

Union with Christ kind of fell out of fashion because it’s hard to define. It’s so big. It encapsulates the entire New Testament.

There are over 200 references in the New Testament that we are in Him, or in Christ, or with Him, or with Christ.

Every time you see those phrases, you’re finding a little jewel of your union with Christ.

I think because it is such a wide-reaching doctrine, it’s sometimes hard to pin down.

But this author had done such a beautiful job that it really freed me in Christ to understand who I was, and as a result, how I could engage with Him in a way that was so much more soul-satisfying.

The legalistic tendencies of my heart—which were, I want to please God. I want to do more. I want to try harder.—all of those things kind of just fell away when I started to understand who I am in Christ and how Christ sees me.

That book was a real impetus for my book and for me to really understand what holy leisure is all about.

Ellen Krause: Incredibly impactful.

We’ll make sure we also include a link to that in our show notes as well for anyone who’s listening and thinking, Yeah, I want to check that out too.

Let’s talk a little bit more about work and holy leisure.

We tend to swing between two extremes. We have a mindset of always producing or just completely, mindlessly checking out.

Where does holy leisure fit in between workaholism and sloth?

Cara Ray: That’s such a good question.

One of the interesting things I realized was that both workaholism, which we think is on this one end of the spectrum, and sloth, which would be on the opposite end of the spectrum, both have this root kind of sin, which is leisurelessness.

That’s a mouthful. Leisurelessness.

A workaholic doesn’t know leisure because they feel like all of it depends on them. They can’t rest. There’s always more work to do. And so they don’t have leisure.

The slothful person—you might think they only know leisure. Actually, what they’re doing is called acedia, which is like this inability to do what’s right for yourself and for your humanity.

The lack of work is actually a neglect of your soul. And so that is exactly leisurelessness too.

So both of those things, even though they’re opposite extremes, kind of have this same foundational thing that is like this lack of leisure.

It’s just an interesting thing that we often feel like we have to work harder, we have to strive more.

We often elevate the workaholic. Like if you’re going to be either of these things, you should be the workaholic. You know, “Go to the ant, you sluggard.”

But a leisurely person who is really in tune with the Lord will recognize that they work in order to rest, and that they have to rely on God to provide the increase, right?

So it is a transfer of our heart posture of relying less on self and trusting in God for the increase.

I hope that makes sense. That’s a lot. That’s a lot of information. But I thought it was really fascinating.

Ellen Krause: Yeah, it does. Yeah, it’s so fascinating.

And if, for a listener maybe who is struggling with being on one end or the other, what would your advice be to them?

Cara Ray: Yeah, I think my advice would be to recognize that God is the Maker and Sustainer of all, and that it is our duty to work hard and trust God with the increase.

I think there’s a balance there. I think that we have to recognize that both ends of that spectrum are sinful in their own unique way.

And so it depends on whether you’re relying too much on self, or you’re being too lazy and you’re not doing the work that is required.

I think both can live in tension together in our hearts, and that we need to seek first the kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added unto you.

And so I think there is that balance that we have to strike in life where we recognize that God is the Sustainer and Provider of all, and yet we still need to get up every day, get ready for work, and show up and trust God to provide the increase.

Ellen Krause: Yes. Great advice that we should take note of if you’re feeling stuck in one of those areas.

Well, let’s, before we wrap up here, Cara, maybe tell us just a little bit about what your overall goal was in creating this resource for people and what you hope that they’ll get out of your book, The Pursuit of Holy Leisure.

Cara Ray: Well, I really was hoping that it would provide people the lens in which to see God’s Word as a pursuit of rest.

And that it’s a pursuit, which means it doesn’t just fall into our lap. We have to pursue God and we have to pursue knowing Him by opening His Word and meeting with Him.

And so I think it’s through that regular rhythm that we can find that desired rest, and that we find it in the person of Jesus.

I think it all comes down to Him. He says, “Come to me, all who are weary and heavy laden, and I will give you rest.”

I think we find that as we meet with Him in His Word.

So it was really born out of my own struggle to see God’s Word as restful and a place of leisure and enjoyment for my own soul.

I hope that it does that for those who pick it up and read—that they’ll see that discipline, that spiritual discipline of meeting with God, in a new way.

Ellen Krause: Yes, absolutely. And I know for sure they will if they choose to pick that up.

Well, Cara, where can our listeners go to find out more information about you and the book?

Cara Ray: Well, they can visit me on my website, which is cara-ray.com. I’ve got a page dedicated to my book there, and it’s linked to Amazon.

My book is on Amazon, and it’s at Barnes & Noble as well.

And then also, if you’re a writer and you’re creative, and we talked a little bit about that, I have a writing community, both a free and paid version of a writing community called The Writer’s Bloc, B-L-O-C. MyWriter’sBloc.com. You can find out more information about that there.

Ellen Krause: That’s so awesome. All right. Well, we will definitely include links to those in our show notes.

Cara, before I let you go, I have to ask you our questions here. Sort of rapid fire here.

What is your go-to Bible, and what translation is it?

Cara Ray: Well, I love the John MacArthur Study Bible. That’s been my go-to for many years.

And I really appreciate the ESV translation, although I do switch back once in a while to get different little nuances of words and things. But the ESV is my go-to.

Ellen Krause: Excellent, excellent.

Okay. Do you have any favorite Bible journaling supplies, or do you even like to journal?

Cara Ray: I do. Well, I have a journal with me every time I open up the Bible.

I love a notebook-size spiral-bound. It has to be spiral-bound, and it has to be college-ruled. Those are my rules.

And then I really love, again, the ESV Scripture Journaling Notebooks. Those have really impacted my own personal Bible study.

You can get, you know, if you’re studying the book of John, get the book of John, and on one side there’s the text, and on the other side there’s a blank page, full, ready for you to journal and make notes and lists and that kind of thing.

So I love those tools.

Ellen Krause: Yes. Yes, those are so awesome, especially too if you’re doing a Bible study on a particular book. Yes, excellent choice.

Okay. Lastly, what is your favorite app or website for Bible study tools?

Cara Ray: I really, I mean, I’m on Bible Gateway almost every day, so I really enjoy using that.

I love Blue Letter Bible. It’s great for when you want to dig into a Greek word, which I am a novice at, but I am getting better at that.

And then for Bible commentary, I really love the Precept Austin website, which I think is a little hidden gem, but it’s a full Bible commentary online. I use that and reference that quite a bit.

Ellen Krause: Yes, okay. I know about that one. That one’s great.

Okay, well, Cara, thank you so much for sharing your favorites there with us and for joining us today and just teaching us that holy leisure is something that we can take delight in God’s Word and truly, it’s a gift, gift from God for us.

So thank you so much for helping people be encouraged by that.

And to everyone listening, I hope you’re walking away encouraged to delight in God’s Word again.

We would love to hear from you. Tell us: What is one way that you’re going to find delight and holy leisure this week?

Let us know by leaving a comment or using the link in the show notes, or even sending us an email at info@coffeeandbibletime.com.

Thank you so much for listening, and we’ll see you next time on the podcast.

Have a blessed day.